On Our Way with CS Education Today

For various reasons I shall not discuss, this Advocate Blog post has been a very long time coming. And, of course, I have changed the topic of the post since my first thoughts of it. It is all good, however.

It would be pretty much impossible for one to miss all the press (mostly good and positive) surrounding computer science, specifically computer science education. Perhaps the interest in that press was sparked during CS Education week, the Hour of Code, the CS Day at the White House, or President Obama urging students, “Don’t just play games on your phone; program it!” Or perhaps it was the relentless diligence and hard work of many of our CSTA members advocating to “Make CS Count” in their own states. In any case, the press is bringing a great deal of attention to CS education and then naturally to CSTA. And this is a good thing.

In my role as CSTA Board Chair, I have been contacted by several reporters recently for a phone interview for an article they are writing about CS education. It is pure delight to talk with the reporters and help enlighten them about CS education. One of my favorite reporter questions was about the one thing that would really help to promote K-12 CS education in the United States. Really? Just ONE thing? Would that it were so simple! With the help of CSTA and our wonderful sponsors, supporters, and partners, we would have the K-12 CS education dilemma all resolved immediately! We need teachers, who need CS licensure/certification, oh and CS pedagogy courses to help them learn how to teach CS. We need standards-based rigorous curriculum for our K-12 students. We need for CS to Count—preferably as a math or science credit towards high school graduation. We need administrators, school boards, legislators, and parents who understand the critical need to teach computer science in the K-12 space. We need time in the school day/schedule for another course offering (that rigorous CS course). We need computer equipment and other technology resources for the classrooms. And I have probably omitted some critical need, but you get the gist of the needs we have for K-12 computer science education.

The very good news is that we are making progress. We are not there yet, but we know where we are going, and we are on our way. We know that the CS community has to work together to solve this seemingly insurmountable task. And we are doing just that. Our good friends and supporters (far too many to mention—but you know who they are) are working to provide standards-based curriculum for teachers. Several states are working with CSTA members and other CS advocates to create a path to licensure/certification if one does not already exist. Some of those same CSTA members and CS advocates are working state by state to make CS count in each state. CSTA members advocate on an almost daily basis to enlighten administrators, school boards, legislators, and parents about the crucial need for computer science education in the K-12 classroom. And administrators are collaborating with teachers to find room in the school day/schedule to offer CS courses or integrate CS into existing courses. We are not there yet, but we are on our way.

I am so heartened to read news stories about how students are using computer science in the K-12 classroom—and what awesome projects they have developed, or what pressing problems they have solved. I am thrilled to read about all the support that business and industry friends are affording our K-12 CS educators. And, I was particularly encouraged by the caliber of applicants we had for the three open CSTA board positions. We had an incredibly talented and highly qualified pool of applicants—so many that selecting the top two candidates was a definite challenge for the CSTA Elections Committee. What a good challenge to have!

We are not there yet, but we are well on our way, and we are keeping up our momentum! It is all good.

Deborah Seehorn, CSTA Board of Directors Chair

CSTA Equity Committee

The CSTA Board’s Equity Committee is, no surprise, concerned with issues around equity of opportunity, support and encouragement for all students in computer science education and careers. We are especially concerned with supporting women and underserved minorities. Diversity is critically important in society and computer science is no exception.

For the past several years a major effort of the Equity committee has been “We are the Faces of Computing” competitions (http://csta.acm.org/Advocacy_Outreach/Other/FOC.html ). The purpose of these competitions is twofold. First is to get students thinking about diversity in computing and its importance. Secondly, and even more importantly, we want students to create artifacts that can be used to help more students see themselves in the field of computing. A collection of winning posters from several years is available at the Faces of Computing web page. For 2014 the Equity committee ran a competition to create videos. The winners were announced during CS Education Week and can be found at the CSTA web site. (http://csta.acm.org/Advocacy_Outreach/sub/CSEdWeek.html)

Throughout the year, the Equity committee works to make sure that all CSTA programs help to support the CSTA goals of equal opportunity and broadening the participation in computing to all segments of the population.

These tasks are of course everyone’s job but having specific members of the board with a particular focus on Equity is an important responsibility that helps the Association keep sight of the goal.

Alfred Thompson, Equity Committee Chair and At-large member, CSTA Board

CSTA at SIGCSE

SIGCSE is the annual conference for the special interest group of ACM that is focused on computer science education. It is always a great event, and if you have never attended, you should put it on your radar for next year! CSTA Board Members and Chapter members will be a presence at SIGCSE this year in many different ways.

Here’s where you can find us:

CSTA Booths #116 and 118 in the Exhibitor Hall.

Helping to pull the whole awesome affair together are John Dougherty (CSTA-Phila) and Ria Galanos (CSTA-VA).

Wednesday

Teaching to Diversity in Computer Science from 1:00pm – 4:30pm with Helen Hu (CSTA-UT).

CS Teaching Tips Tip-A-Thon from 1:00pm – 4:00pm with Stephanie Hoeppner (CSTA Board Member) and many others.

Thursday

NSF showcase – Process Oriented Guided Inquiry Learning in CS with Clif Kussmaul (CSTA-Phila), Helen Hu (CSTA-UT) and Daniel Libby.

Computer Science Principles Curricula: On-the-ground, Adoptable, Adaptable, Approaches to Teaching from 1:45pm – 3:00pm with Owen Astrachan (CSTA-Triangle East), Jeff Gray (CSTA-AL) and others.

Supporting the Computer Science Learning Process from 3:45pm – 5:00pm with Pat Yongpradit (CSTA-MD) and others.

BOF – Computer Science Principles: Expanding the Community from 5:30pm –  6:20pm with Owen Astrachan (CSTA-Triangle East), Fran Trees (CSTA Chapter Liaison), Rich Kick (CSTA-Southern CA) and others.

BOF – What Math is the Right Math for Computing? from 5:30pm – 6:20pm with John Dougherty (CSTA-Phila).

BOF – Teaching Algebra and Computing through Bootstrap and Program by Design from  5:30pm – 6:20pm with Emmanuel Schanzer (CSTA member)

BOF – Teaching Algebra and Computing through Bootstrap and Program by Design from 5:30pm – 6:20pm with Emmanuel Schanzer (CSTA member)

BOF – Process Oriented Guided Inquiry Learning (POGIL) in Computer Science from 5:30pm – 6:20pm with Clif Kussmaul (CSTA-Phila) and Helen Hu (CSTA-UT) and others.

BOF – Partnering to Promote State-by-State Computing Education Reform from 6:30pm – 7:20pm with Barb Ericson (CSTA-GA).

BOF – Addressing Professional Development Needs for K-12 CS – Working with Your Local CSTA Chapter  from 6:30pm – 7:20pm with Dave Reed (CSTA Board Chair-Elect) and Fran Trees (CSTA Chapter Liaison).

Friday

Using POGIL Activities to Teach CS Principles to Diverse Students, a Poster by Helen Hu (CSTA-UT)

A Case Study on Adding Computer Science as a Math Graduation Elective: A Report from the Alabama CS/Mathematics Crosswalk Committee, a Poster by Jeff Gray, et al (CSTA-AL)

Research, Resources and Communities: Informal Ed as a Partner in Computer Science Education, a panel with Irene Lee (CSTA Chair Computational Thinking Task Force) from 10:45am – noon

Papers: Focus on K-12 Professional Development with Chinma Uche (CSTA-CT), Terry Harvey and Lori Pollock (CSTA-DE) and Deepa Muralidhar (CSTA-GA) from 1:45pm – 3:00pm

One-Day Activities for K-12 Face-to-Face Outreach (Panel) on Friday from 3:45pm – 5:00pm. Barb Ericson (CSTA-GA) and Jeff Gray (CSTA-AL) are on the panel.

Perspectives on Adopting and Facilitating Guided Inquiry Learning with Helen Hu (CSTA-UT), Clif Kussmaul (CSTA-Phila) and Deepa Muralidhar (CSTA-GA) from 3:45pm – 5:00pm.

Conducting Educational Research in the Computer Science Classroom: Choosing the Appropriate Research Design to Address your Research Questions from 7:00pm – 10:00pm with Aman Yadav (CSTA Board Member)

How to Plan and Run Summer Computing Camps – Logistics #14 from 7:00pm – 10:00pm with Barb Ericson (CSTA-GA)

Small or Liberal Arts Colleges Adapting to CS2013: Making it Work from 7:00pm – 10:00pm with Dave Reed (CSTA Board Chair-Elect)

The Internet, Creativity and Global Impact: Curriculum Modules from 7:00pm – 10:00pm with Andrew Kuemmel (CSTA-WI) and Rich Kick (CSTA-Southern CA)

Infusing Cooperative Learning into Early Computer Science Courses to Support Improved Engagement from 7:00pm – 10:00pm with Jeff Gray (CSTA-AL), Fran Trees (CSTA Chapter Liaison), Owen Astrachan (CSTA-Triangle East)

Saturday

App Inventor Breakfast is co-hosted by Fred Martin (CSTA Board Member)

Scaling High School Computer Science: Exploring Computer Science and Computer Science Principles from 9:00am – 10:15am with Owen Astrachan (CSTA-Triangle East), Jeff Gray (CSTA-AL), and others.

Decoding CS Principles – A Curriculum from Code.org from 3:00pm – 6:00pm with Baker Franke (CSTA-Chicago) and Pat Yongpradit (CSTA-MD)

 

Computing for the Common Good

In starting to write a long overdue blog post, my thoughts are inevitably on the reason it took me so long: my mother has been seriously ill since the beginning of the year. Throughout the past two months I have been consulting with doctors and medical specialists on a quest to find the best possible solution to her current symptoms, fully aware of the fact that her condition may soon become terminal.

I live on an island on the west coast of Greece; it may be one of the largest islands in the country but there are many shortcomings when it comes to healthcare. Although we do have a hospital, several departments (e.g. gastrointestinal), procedures (e.g. ERCP) and an Intensive Care Unit are missing.

Throughout the three years of my mom’s illness, I am more than certain that she wouldn’t have made it this far if it weren’t for computing. Hardware and software – scanner, digital camera, smartphone, imaging software, e-mail, cloud drives – have all been employed to transmit vital information to doctors in Athens so that they can make timely decisions on her treatment. Sometimes the necessary actions can be taken in Kefalonia – in which case ICT “takes over” to complete the feedback loop. Usually she needs to be transferred to Athens – seven endoscopic and one standard (this last one) surgical procedures plus intensive care, all dependent on cameras, probes, monitors etc. – plus a “fighter” attitude and she’s still here with us, with good quality of life for as long as humanly possible.

On a different note, the school project I am probably proudest of was completed by my students four years ago: amidst a severe humanitarian crisis in Greece we devised a system for distributing meals to the needy based on the concept that volunteers need only contribute a plate of food from their daily cooking. All the material needed to deploy the system in a community is available under a Creative Commons license at enapiatofaghto.wikispaces.com. (in Greek. For an English summary featured in the European Year of Volunteering 2011 see here)

Now that smartphones and tablets are ubiquitous we may even develop an app for mobile users (anyone interested in furthering the project is free to do so: that’s what the CC Share Alike license is all about!)

The point I am trying to make in this post: all too often when we talk about teaching our students computing we naturally focus on computational thinking, coding classes, how to successfully pursue a career in computer science and technology… for students on the other hand, all too often computing means gaming, social media, entertainment and a profitable career. The videos I reviewed as a member of the Equity Committee in the recent “Faces of Computing” competition showed that this is the primary message our students are getting (though there were some brilliant exceptions!). Perhaps it’s time we encouraged our students to explore the wonderful prospects computing has unlocked in dealing with illness… in helping people in need… in fighting injustice. Perhaps it’s time to shine a spotlight on Computing for the Common Good.

This post was written in Ippokrateio General Hospital in Athens, Greece and is dedicated to its medical, nursing and administrative staff (especially Drs. A. Romanos and S. Matthaiou). In Greek “Ippokrateio” means “belonging to Hippocrates”… I am certain the “Father of Medicine” would be proud of them!

Mina Theofilatou, CSTA International Representative

The CSTA Curriculum Committee

The primary purpose of the CSTA Curriculum Committee is to provide K-12 computer science teachers with access to high quality, standards-based curriculum resources. During the past year, the committee has been busy vetting crosswalks to the CSTA K-12 CS Standards that have been submitted by curriculum providers. The crosswalks that have been vetted by the committee include those submitted by Linux, Oracle, Google, Tech Corps, and Mobile Makers iOS. Vetted crosswalks to the standards are posted on the CSTA website http://csta.acm.org/Curriculum/sub/K12Standards.html upon approval by the curriculum provider.

A major publication for the CSTA Curriculum Committee is the CSTA K-12 Computer Science Standards, released in 2011 and available at the above webpage. The purpose of the standards was to delineate a core set of learning standards designed to provide the foundation for a complete computer science curriculum and its implementation at the K–12 level. The standards allow the Curriculum Committee to support our CSTA members by informing them of quality standards-based curriculum resources. To better support and assist CS educators, the CSTA K-12 Standards have been crosswalked to these national standards: Common Core State Standards, Common Core Mathematical Practice Standards, STEM Career Cluster Topics, and the Partnership for the 21st Century Essential Skills Standards. The CSTA K-12 CS Standards are also available on the CSTA website en Español.

The current members of the CSTA Curriculum Committee are:

Laura Blankenship, The Baldwin School, lblanken@gmail.com

Debbie Carter, CSTA Board Member Emeritus, dpcarterpa@verizon.net

Fred Martin, University of Massachusetts, Lowell, fredm@cs.uml.edu

Tammy Pirmann, School District of Springfield Township, PA, tpirmann@gmail.com

Deborah Seehorn, NC Department of Public Instruction, deborah.seehorn@dpi.nc.gov

Lissa Clayborn, Acting CSTA Executive Director, l.clayborn@csta-hq.org

Frequently the Curriculum Committee collaborates with other CSTA committees on projects of interest to both committees. Occasionally, the committee solicits assistance from experts with a particular area of computing curriculum expertise. We welcome your comments and suggestions on ways the CSTA Curriculum Committee can better meet the needs of our CSTA members.

Deborah Seehorn, CSTA Curriculum Committee Chair

Designing Thinking in K-12

During my recent trip to India, I visited the American Embassy School (AES) in New Delhi. During my visit, I was able to talk to the members of the technology integration team and how they are combining design thinking, computational thinking, and maker space ideas to allow students to become creative users of computing technologies. More on AES tech vision can be read here. While computational thinking in K-12 schools has gotten a lot of attention, design thinking has the potential to further enhance students’ creative problem solving.

The Institute of Design (d.school) at Stanford University offers a virtual crash course that exposes learners to the five aspects of design thinking: empathize, define, ideate, prototype, and test. Teachers interested in learning more about how to embed design thinking in their K-12 classroom can find more resources on the d.school’s K12 lab network wiki.

L’Oréal For Women in Science Program

I don’t hear often enough about the accomplishments of young women in professional or near-professional accomplishments in CS, so I was excited to learn about the annual L’Oréal For Women in Science program that recognizes and rewards the contributions women make in STEM fields and identifies exceptional women researchers committed to serving as role models for younger generations.  More than 2,000 women scientists in over 100 countries have been recognized since the program began in 1998.

The L’Oréal USA For Women In Science fellowship program will award five postdoctoral women scientists in the United States this year with grants of up to $60,000 each. Applicants are welcome from a variety of fields, including the life and physical/material sciences, technology (including computer science), engineering, and mathematics.

Do you know someone who qualifies? Do you have acquaintances in universities who might know candidates? Please send them the information.

Applications opened on February 2, 2015 and are due on March 20, 2015.

The application and more information on the L’Oréal USA For Women in Science program can be found at www.lorealusa.com/forwomeninscience.

Should you have any questions or require additional information, please e‐mail rpacifico@us.loreal.com.

Hello from the CSTA Communications Committee!

The primary goal of the CSTA Communications Committee is to ensure that members learn about the many, many opportunities, resources, news, and initiatives from CSTA.

We’ve been up to quite a bit lately:

  • Listserv moderators have been selected and are busy making sure you get the news promptly. If you are not familiar with the listserv, it is a place to ask questions about teaching CS, make connections, and support each other in our community. On the flip side, it is not for selling or pushing products or something that monetarily benefits you. Recommendations are fine if someone is asking “what book do you use,” “do you get this error using this….,” etc.  The listserv is about building a professional group of educators that can be resources for each other.  Each message to the listserv is checked and approved by a moderator before being distributed. So please join us and lend your expertise or ask your questions!  Sign up for the Listserv.
  • Various CSTA committees will be reporting on the Advocate blog to keep you in touch with plans and projects. Periodically, each committee will submit a blog article about committee activities, how the committee works for CSTA’s goals, and hopefully, answer any questions you may have. Check out all of the blog articles for great CS educator content.  So, is it recursion if we link to the blog here while you are already reading the Advocate blog?….hmmm…. :)
  • The CSTA Voice newsletter is another communication tool for keeping up with CSTA and CS education content selected especially for our members. We’re always on the look-out to identify interesting content and authors for the Voice. Let us know what you would like to learn about. Or better yet, offer to share your knowledge and skills by writing an article for the Voice. We’d love to hear about what you’re doing in your classroom, the news from your CSTA Chapter, or other content of interest to CS educators. Download past CSTA Voice newsletters
  • Our efforts to keep you in the know about CSTA are continuous. You are an important part of this process. To recommend an article for The Voice, contribute an Advocate blog post, or to provide general feedback, please contact us!

If you are reading this blog but still haven’t joined CSTA, what are you waiting for? Sign up today for an Individual membership or Institutional membership.

All of the links provided above can be found on the main page of CSTA.  Please visit http://csta.acm.org/ to view all the other resources and information available to you.

The Communications Committee

Stephanie Hoeppner, Pat Phillips, Myra Deister, Sheena Vaidyanathan

10 Lessons Learned from Developing a PK-12 Computer Science Program in SFUSD

by Bryan Twarek
Division of Curriculum & Instruction, San Francisco Unified School District

Computer science (CS) is becoming increasingly critical to a student’s success in preparing for college and career. In today’s digital age, all students must develop a foundational knowledge to understand how computers works and the skills required to creatively solve real-world problems. However, the vast majority of schools do not yet offer computer science instruction. In fact, in San Francisco public high schools, only 5% of students are enrolled in a computer science class, and only half of the schools offer a single course. Even at the schools that do offer computer science, the students in these classes are generally unrepresentative of the schools’ population as a whole, with far fewer females and students of color.

It is critical that we address this need with an equity mindset and ensure that all students have access to computer science, beginning in the earliest grades. With this in mind, the San Francisco Unified School District (SFUSD) has committed to expanding its computer science programming to ensure that all students at all schools have experience with high-quality computer science instruction throughout their PK-12 educational career.

Currently, we are developing a policy and implementation plan for integrating computer science into our core curriculum. As part of this work, we are crafting a PK-12 scope and sequence of essential knowledge and skills to be taught at each grade level. We will pilot at select schools next school year, with fuller implementation in 2016-2017.

I would love to share 10 lessons that I have learned through my experience with this initiative:

  1. There is a lot of excitement around computer science.
    Many schools had a taste during the Hour of Code and are now asking for more. Through surveys and interviews, we have determined that the vast majority of teachers, administrators, students, and families support expanding computer science instruction. In fact, 100% of surveyed teachers responded that it is important for their students to learn computer science.
  2. Most adults don’t have prior experience with computer science.
    It is challenging to begin teaching a subject that most never learned themselves in school. While most of our current high school computer science teachers have a degree in CS or relevant industry experience, this is not a scalable practice. We will have to develop teachers from within the district, and they will need to learn the content before learning how to teach it to their students. For this reason, we plan to utilize dedicated computer science teachers at all grade levels, rather than have all multiple subjects teachers to integrate a new discipline into their classes.
  3. Defining computer science is tricky.
    Many people mistake computer science as educational technology (i.e., integrating computing into teaching and learning). Others believe that computer science is just programming. Developing a thorough, yet concise definition of computer science is challenging even for experts. It’s been helpful to present the five strands in CSTA’s K-12 Standards as a way to simple way to articulate the various aspects of computer science. 
  4. We must begin teaching computer science at younger ages.
    Unfortunately, we have noted that females and students of color are underrepresented in computer science classes, even as young as sixth grade. Therefore, we must reach children before they develop constructs of who pursues and excels in STEM fields. We plan to normalize computer science education by guaranteeing access to all students when they first enter our schools in kindergarten or pre-kindergarten. 
  5. Little academic research and few curricula exist.
    There has been little academic research on K-12 computer science education since the days of Seymour Papert, which makes it difficult to know exactly what to teach and how to teach it. Additionally, there are very few cohesive computer science curricula targeted for elementary and middle school students. Only within the last one to two years have organizations like Code.org and Project Lead the Way created K-5 CS curricula, and it will likely be several more years before we have a clear picture of what works well.
  6. Great things are happening outside of the classroom.
    While few of our students currently take computer science classes, some excellent nonprofits, community-based organizations, and individual teachers have worked to fill in these gaps. Clubs, after school activities, one-time events, and summer programs offer additional opportunities to engage with CS. Some try to reach all students, including: Mission Bit, FIRST Robotics League, CS First, and Coder Dojo. Others target underrepresented populations, including: Girls Who Code, Black Girls Code, Chick Tech, and Hack the Hood.
  7. We must attack this issue from multiple angles.
    Developing a plan to go from 5% of students to 100% takes time, but we recognize that if we wait for our plan to be fully implemented, we will miss many students. We can start providing computer science education even before we create new classes by advocating for and supporting clubs, after school activities, and informal opportunities outside of the classroom. We can also quickly start trying ideas out with interested schools and teachers who already have the technology and time for instruction or space for integration. Additionally, we are also working to bring CS classes to more schools by leveraging industry professionals to volunteer and develop our teachers through the TEALS program.
  8. It is important to leverage successes.
    It is easier to gain traction when there are successes to point to. We already have strong three-course computer science sequences at two high schools, so we are using these as models for expanding to other high schools. Plus, pilot programs will allow us to learn from their trials, successes, and struggles as we develop our plans for scaling to all schools in the district.
  9. Competing priorities make it hard to fit in.
    Even when various stakeholders agree to the value of providing computer science education to all students, it still leaves the contentious questions of where and how this fits into the schedule. That is, how many hours do we devote to CS, and do we integrate into existing classes or create new ones? if we have dedicated CS teachers at all levels, we have to hire more staff, but we gain better quality control and more effective teacher development. On the other hand, if our science, math, and multiple subjects teachers teach CS, they can leverage their strong relationships with students and more seamlessly integrate with other content areas, but the majority don’t have background experience and are already working to transition to the Common Core, alongside many other important school and district initiatives. Since few K-12 models exist, it’s even more difficult to come to a consensus.
  10. Our plan will have to be continuously updated.
    The field of computer science is still relatively new, and technologies quickly become outdated. We must acknowledge that the field will continue to rapidly evolve in sometimes unpredictable ways, and as such, our plan for teaching computer science will also need the flexibility to continuously adapt.

Going beyond coding puzzles

Moving a robot through a maze or drawing a pre-defined shape are examples of well known coding puzzles available in every tool or curriculum. As a K-8 computer science teacher, I know we love handing out these structured exercises to our students. They are a perfect way to introduce programming concepts, and because they only have one solution, they provide a clear and definitive end to the lesson. It makes assessment easy, it takes away the stress of “what should I make” and it makes both teacher and student feel successful. It simplifies PD for new CS teachers and ensures that all students will learn the basics.

But K-8 computer science teachers need to go beyond these coding puzzles. We must show students that programming offers much more than a ‘one solution’ answer to a pre-defined problem. This can be messy, uncomfortable and it is not easy.  However, we also know it can be fun and deliver the “fall in love with coding” moment we hope to provide in these early CS classes.

When do we show our students that they can make anything with code?  Should we use K-8 as a time to focus on creative computing and make the first few projects completely exploratory?

I believe CS teachers must strike a delicate balance here.  While showing the students that there is so much more than mazes and shapes, we also want to give them constraints to ensure that they are still successful. In my own classroom, I see both excitement and fear when I tell  students they can make anything they want. Some students rush in – “I know exactly the kind of game I want to create.” However there are others who are frozen – they want suggestions, they want to look around for inspiration, they prefer to remix an existing project. To these students, the open ended project is a source of stress and can scare them away from coding. As teachers, our challenge is to find ways to be helpful but not limiting to these students, allowing them to explore their creative potential without fear.

During my days as an art student, I remember being given a blank white canvas and found myself in my own “make anything you want” moment. I felt that same fear many of my students have until my instructor gave me a wonderful tip – just paint a Burnt Sienna (brown) wash on it. Simply turning the canvas into something non-white made a difference. It gave me the courage to start, to experiment, and to make mistakes.

Writing code for a new project is a lot like starting a new painting. As a CS teacher, we have to be ready to give our students the help they need: a gentle suggestion, the first few lines of code, an exercise that could be extended. We must find the Sienna brown wash that will get them going.